Dillo Web Browser :: + + Interview + +

+ + +

+ This is a revised translation of an interview I gave to tux.cl in Q4 2002. + Many thanks to Stephen Lewis and Kelson Vibber for correcting my grammar. + If any glitches remain, corrections are welcome. +

It's interesting that even today (2009) it keeps its relevance + on the different topics it covers. Both, about Dillo and FreeSW/OSS. +

(Original source in Spanish + here) + --Jorge +

+ +

Basically, what's the Dillo project about?

+ +

+The project objectives are: +

The democratization of Internet information access. +
Security and personal privacy. +
High software efficiency. +

+and for that we're developing a web browser that is: +

Completely written in C. +
Less than 300KB (Yes, KILOBYTES!). +
Free Software under the GPL license. +
Working on a + broad range + of hardware platforms +
Very fast. +

+In fact, with Dillo, a 486 PC and a telephone line is enough +to enjoy a good Internet connection. +

+Dillo's efficiency allows it to work even on a personal digital +assistant (pocket sized computer). +

+In summary: we're developing a web browser that allows the user +fast, secure and efficient access to the wide information +spectrum of the Internet, keeping the hardware requirements to a +minimum. + +

What would be the main use for Dillo?

+ +

+Information access! +

+Dillo could open the doors of a new Internet experience to tens +of millions of people in the world. +

+It is important to know that the entry barriers to Internet are +_artificial_. They were created and sustained with a view to make +better business profits. +

+(If you purchase a computer of the current year, renew it every +two or three, and in addition pay monthly for broadband service, +it is much more expensive than keeping your computer and paying +the phone bill) +

+ Now you know: you don't need a modern computer and broadband +for Internet access. + +

It is mentioned that Dillo could be used even on a 486. Is there +an "ideal" distribution for this kind of equipment?

+ +

+There is a large number of so-called minimalist distributions +seeking to accomodate different degrees of "smallness". They +range in size from a single diskette to a few tens of Megabytes. +

+I haven't tested them yet! - but I installed Slackware (3.5 +IIRC) on a 66Mhz 486DX once and it worked flawlessly. +

+Now, considering that +Drinou Linux +is based on Slackware, and includes a packaged +dillo-0.6.6, I'd recommend it, and this is the one I'd give a try to +power a 486 machine. + +

Is an estimate of the size of Dillo's userbase known?

+ +

+That's very hard to estimate, since dillo is not distributed from +our site alone: there are Debian packages, rpm, ipk, *BSD, etc. +scattered through cyberspace. There are also distributions +including it in their base systems. +

+If the source package alone is considered (an option far less +used than an .rpm), dillo-0.6.6 must have near 20,000 downloads +from our site. +

+We'd have to add a larger amount to that number. +

+Eventually I'll come up with a way to count them all! + +

How has the acceptance of Dillo been in the GNU/Linux community?

+ +

+Very very good! +

+I've noticed that from the people who take some time to write and +thank us for the benefit they get from using Dillo, we've got +more fans than users. +

+It is extraordinarily enriching to receive the thankful letters +from so many people from such diverse parts of the world. + +

How is the development of Dillo done?

+ +

+Dillo is an international project with developers of diverse +nationalities collaborating from their respective countries. All +of this is made possible by integrating several technologies that +allow the configuration of what we may call a "virtual office" +over the Internet space. +

+The group consists of two core developers, three steady +developers and several freelance ones. +

+The geographic distribution of its members is mainly in Europe +and South America! +

+Among the main technologies we use to create our working space we +have: HTTP servers, CGI, log analyzer, bug tracker, web browsers, +shell servers, mailing lists, ssh, CVS, FTP, IRC, scripts, +python, gcc/gdb, POSIX-compliant operating systems, debuggers, +release publishers, ..., and the English language! + + +

Why GTK+ and not QT?

+ +

+For several reasons. The main one is that when the Dillo project +started, the QT libraries were not Free Software (that changed +later). Moreover, by that time, they were developing the KHTML +library for their future web browser (Konqueror). +

+On the other hand, gzilla was based on GTK+, and it was Free +Software, and the image rendering extensions I was planning were +assured because GTK+ was the basis for the GIMP! + + +

The fact that Dillo is programmed in C makes it portable to other +operating systems. Shouldn't Windows be your principal target, +considering that the "democratization of Internet" would have +more impact because of the larger userbase of this OS?

+ +

+Definitely NOT. +

+Let's go by parts: the fact that Dillo is programmed in C is not +a guarantee of portability. In fact, library dependence is much +more important. +

+If the libraries are portable, or have equivalent APIs, is +relatively straightforward to make a version for the supporting +platform. If the function libraries do not exist in the target +platform, porting becomes a titanic task. +

+On to the other part, the endeavour of democratizing the access +to Internet is very much tied to these two facts: +

Dillo keeps the hardware requirements low and constant. +
You don't need to pay software licenses to use Free Software. +

+Micro$oft (windoze) is the exact opposite, and even more, it +artificially raises the hardware requirements. If someone uses +that platform, he will have to renew his computer periodically +(to do the same things he was doing before), and also pay a new +license every time there's an "upgrade". +

+If, on the other hand, a Free Software platform such as GNU/Linux +(with dillo) is opted for, an old or new computer can be used for +as long as the hardware lasts, without fearing that it will +stop working. And, of course, there is no need to pay a license +fee. +

+The second option allows people who are without an Internet +connection because of its "high costs" to enjoy the advantages of +the information era. +

+It is true that there's a need to educate and inform that: +

It is FALSE that you need to renew your computer every three + years. +
It is FALSE that you need an ultra modern computer to connect + to the Internet. +
It is FALSE that you can't have good internet access with a + phone line. +

+Those myths (when taken as true) are only the basis of a +multi-million dollar business that exploits those who believe +them! + + +

What does being the project coordinator imply?

+ +

+Responsibility, knowledge, consistency and leadership. + + +

Do organization problems arise?

+ +

+Yes, as in every group dynamic, but along very particular lines. +

+Maybe the most interesting among them is that as this is a +project made of volunteers, you can't demand that someone do a +certain task, in certain way, in a fixed amount of time. +

+When you want someone to perform or do a certain task, it must be +founded very well to make an agreement, and it must coincide with +the particular interest area of that developer. +

+Another point worthy of notice is that sometimes very valuable +time is wasted explaining/coordinating/delimiting how some task +should be done to someone, only to finally get (after a trial) an +explanation for not being able to do it. + + +

Has it demanded much of your time?

+ +

+In the Dillo project I have two jobs: +

Project coordinator. +
Lead developer. +

+Moreover, considering the enormous complexity and dynamism of the +underlying technologies for a web browser, it is easy to +understand that there's much more work than time. +

+In fact, since the project's beginning, I've worked full time, +three years, including weekends. + + +

What platform (GNU/Linux distro) do you use for developing Dillo?

+ +

+I use Slackware, but in the development group there are people +using NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, and other GNU/Linux +distros, so our software is tested on a broad spectrum of +platforms before making each release. +

+ In my opinion, Slackware is the best distribution for one +who knows what he's doing, or wants to learn well the technical +rationale of a GNU/Linux environment. + + +

How and when did you start with GNU/Linux?

+ +

+I should say around 1996, with Slackware 3.5 or 3.6, but I used +"monkey linux" over a DOS filesystem before (kernel 2.0.30!). +

+Anyway, my first steps on Unix environments were by 1990. + + +

Why do you state Dillo is Free Software and not Open Source?

+ +

+Short answer: +

Free Software is a social movement. +
Open Source is just a development technique. +

+Medium sized answer: +

+After knowing there's a high-end operating system, developed by +volunteers around the world in their free time, that's +distributed as Free Software (which implies among other things +that you can use it without paying licences), any intellectually +inclined person starts to wonder what motivates the group to +devote their time to such an endeavour. +

+The answer is about a shared ethic and philosophy of such force +that it's able to create a social movement based on its members' +convictions. Unified by a common element, Free Software (or +Software Libre), under the shelter of the GPL. +

+It's silly to think that it's just for the joy of programming, or +even worse, for a development technique. +

+ +What is Free Software? +

+It is a type of Software that grants four basic freedoms: +

Freedom to use the program, for any purpose. +
Freedom to study how the program works and to adapt it to + your needs (source code access). +
Freedom to copy and distribute (you can help your neighbour). +
Freedom to improve the program and make the enhancements + available so all the community benefits. +

+In simple terms, the GPL license is the legal mechanism that +obliges that when the program is redistributed, those freedoms +can't be restricted, denied or restrained, so they are fully +preserved for the recipients. +

+i.e. software under the GPL will always deliver the four basic +freedoms stated above. +

+These simple elements have been creating an enormous software +base, shared by lots of people around the world. In fact, all the +GNU software and the Linux kernel are under the GPL. They are +Free Software. +

+But, what motivates this movement's members? +

+The answer to this question is very broad, including the generic +level, and probably I'll write about it on other occasion, but it +is worth a remark to note that for an abstract analytical mind, +the answer may come from the analysis of competitive societies, +interchange communities and cooperation societies. +

+Moreover, the famous "prisoner's dilemma" sheds a lot of light on +this matter. +

+A detailed answer (in English) can be found by reading about the +GNU +project philosophy. + + +

What do you think about the fact that most people don't +distinguish between Free Software and Open Source?

+ +

+It's not rare, as the term was coined in some respects to confuse. +

+The Free Software movement (Software Libre) antecedes the Open +Source Software (OSS) definition by far. In fact, if I remember +correctly, the GNU/Linux system existed and was already operative +before the term 'OSS' was coined. +

+In a few words, it happened that as Free Software produced +reticence inside the business world (because it was oriented +towards the freedoms the end user received), a small group made a +pragmatic decision: to conceal the ethical and philosophical +aspects, presenting Free Software as a development methodology +and not as the movement it is. +

+Thus, they elaborated an OSS definition broad enough to include +Free Software within a larger set (and thus to be able to claim that +certain software is OSS when in fact it is Free Software). +

+The problem is that OSS allows denying some of the freedoms +granted by Free Software. +

+The funny thing is, they had a tremendous success, and as most of +the written media makes its income from advertising (paid for by +enterprises), they decide to keep on using the OSS term and not +to offend their clients. +

+The point is, those who learned about GNU/Linux's existence from +that media began thinking it was OSS. +

+Today, the OSS term has caused much harm to the Free Software +Foundation and to the GNU project, whose achievements they declare +to be those of OSS, while concealing the underlying philosophy. +

+In fact, it was a double-edged sword: on one hand it opened the +entry door to the enterprise, and on the other, it concealed the +most important part: a matter of freedoms. +

+That's why today it is very important to distinguish and explain +the difference between Free Software and OSS. +

+I hope to have contributed to it. +

+Related information: about the +FSF, +and about the +GNU project. + + +

How do you think Chilean Linuxers could be motivated to +participate in or begin Free Software projects?

+ +

+Ouch! It's not just a matter of getting in. You have to know a +lot first. +

+Working in a Free Software project requires people with a lot of +knowledge, not just the will to participate. +

+I'd recommend first to get very well informed about what Free +Software is, and if they share the underlying philosophy, to get +involved in an area they know very well (as it could be the same +as they worked on with their thesis). + + +

How do you see Dillo's future?

+ +

+That's something that's not yet defined, as it regrettably +doesn't depend on us alone... +

+Technically, we have all the expertise, will and ideas to make +"big things" with Dillo. BTW, what we have developed thus far +already makes a big difference! +

+For instance, some may have heard about the "digital divide". +

+(the so-called "digital divide" is the gap that exists between +those who have access to information technologies and those +who don't. It is easy to see that in an interconnected world, +with an ever-growing portion of human activities being +encompassed by the informatics realm, this divide comes to +constitute what we may call the "illiteracy of the 21st +century"). +

+Thus, it is easy to understand why the UN and most countries +(developed or not) are concerned about it. Consequently they +hold summits to debate how to close the divide, and assign +thousands of millions of dollars to the issue. +

+Regrettably, as the UN's general secretary has +declared: +

+"But bridging the digital divide is not going to be easy. Too +often, state monopolies charge exorbitant prices for the use of +bandwidth. Governments need to do much more to create effective +institutions and supportive regulatory frameworks that will +attract foreign investment; more generally, they must also review +their policies and arrangements to make sure they are not denying +their people the opportunities offered by the digital revolution. +" +(think about it) +

+ +It is easy to see that the economic interests involved are huge. +

+A small example: +

+Dillo is a tangible demonstration that the technology to build a +PDA (pocket-sized computer) integrating a web browser and phone +EXISTS today. +

+Dillo is a tangible demonstration that it is possible to make a +home phone with a screen and web browser for near US $250 and +bring Internet access to a huge amount of people. +

+Why can't those products be found in the market? +

+If we consider the thousands of millions of dollars in profits +that the IT market generates as it is today, is easy to understand +why they don't want to change it! +

+In brief: the technology to bring low-cost Internet access to the +masses exists today. It only needs the willingness of some +government to do it. +

+In fact, in Chile, with GNU/Linux + Dillo, today it is possible +with an old computer and a phone line, to access a broad range of +information available from government servers, universities, +newspapers, magazines, forums, etc... (and not even according a +simple standardization policy!). +

+Our project is seeking funds that allow for a small team of +stable developers, with full-time dedication, with a view to +accelerate and improve our browser and thus contribute to build a +better-informed society. +

+All the information with regard to the Dillo project can be found +in our web site. + + +

Is there any project where Dillo is used "commercially"?

+ +

+Yes. there's an + +interesting project implementing an information intranet for +hotels over embedded devices (USA). +

+Moreover, I've been told that in an Australian university an +electronic information system was implemented over flat screens +controlled centrally from a web interface. +

+One time we received a thankful note from a person that completed +a heterogeneous research work (information retrieval) quickly and +efficiently because of using dillo. +

+The possibilities are many, it only takes some knowledge and the +will to do it. + + +

In what ways could the Dillo project be helped?

+ +

+I think in three ways: +

Making direct contributions such as patches and source code + (which requires a lot of knowledge and experience) +
Talking about it! Knowing the project objectives, and +communicating them to people. Making people see that it's +possible to have good Internet surfing with an old computer and a +phone line. +
+ Reading manuals and sites, investigating with Dillo, +enjoying the speed and ease with which it can be done, and then +go spreading the word to other people. +
Helping us to find a way to fund the project. +

+ + +

How do you see the Chilean Linux community?

+ +

+Really, I haven't had the time to get involved, but I think it +is active to some degree, with national gatherings, events etc. +

+BTW, today Nov 29, there's a national event of GNU/Linux in +Concepción. +

+I'd like to participate and give a speech, maybe in another +opportunity. +

+I also believe that the UTFSM's "linux" mailing list has done a +lot for the community, gathering a lot of people towards a common +interest focus. + + +

Finally, what's your opinion of tux.cl?

+ +

+It is an interesting project that's just beginning. +

+How could it be improved? +

+First you must define what you want to do: that is, the +publication's objective. + +After surfing the net a while and getting the feel of it being +full of information about GNU/Linux, another news site is not +interesting; the point to take advantage of is that you write in +Spanish and know the Chilean grounds, so you can deliver +information that can't be found anywhere else... +

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